https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/2017/thaler-interview.html
Richard H. Thaler - Interview
"Our research has greatly changed pensions systems all around the world"
Telephone interview with Richard H. Thaler following the announcement of the 2017 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. The interviewer is Adam Smith, Chief Scientific Officer of Nobel Media. Richard H. Thaler describes some of the impacts of his work on behavioural economics in this telephone interview recorded immediately after the public announcement of the award of his Prize in Economic Sciences. He also explains the concept of the ‘'nudge', and looks forward to being in Stockholm again with his old friend Daniel Kahneman, Laureate in Economic Sciences from 2002.
[Richard H. Thaler]: Hello
[Adam Smith]: Hi, this is Adam Smith, calling from Nobelprize.org, the website of the Nobel Prize in Stockholm.
[RT]: Yes.
[AS]: Well first of all, congratulations on the award of the Prize in Economic Sciences.
[RT]: Thank you.
[AS]: May I ask how the news reached you?
[RT]: It woke me up.
[AS]: [Laughs]. Nice way to be woken.
[RT]: Yeah. It's good to see Sweden on your cell phone.
[AS]: Of course. People will perhaps best know you for your book?Nudge, published almost a decade ago. For those who don't know could you describe what a nudge is?
[RT]: A nudge is some feature of the environment that changes the behaviour of humans but would not change the behaviour of rational economic agents, what we call Econs. So, for example, the research I was talking about in Stockholm a couple of weeks ago was about two nudges in the Swedish pension system, one was creating default funds that people would take if they didn't make a choice, and then the other was an advertising campaign encouraging people to not to take the default. The paper that we're now writing is sort of a battle of those two nudges.
[AS]: Right, yes, What's your favourite example of a successful nudge?
[RT]: Well you know, I would say probably the most successful has been the use of what we call automatic enrolment in pension plans. Meaning the default is to join rather than not to join.
[AS]: Right.
[RT]: For example this has been used in a recent roll out of the national pension saving plan in the UK, and the enrolment rates are well over 90%.
[AS]: It's 15 years since your friend?Daniel Kahneman?was awarded the Prize. I suppose since then what we've seen is an absolute blossoming of the field of behavioural economics. Has it reached a point do you think where it can be used for making tools for setting public policy?
[RT]: Well sure. I mean that's what somebody asked me to come over to Stockholm to talk about three weeks ago. And I think our research has greatly changed pension systems all around the world. The idea of Save More Tomorrow where you invite people to commit themselves to saving move sometime in the future has been quite successful. We think there may be as many as 25 million people in the US involved in that programme. Countries all around the world, starting with the UK, have started behavioural insight teams, often referred to as nudge units. And they seem to be doing lots of good.
[AS]: Just a last thing, we all like to think we're different don't we? But somehow your work brings us all into a unifying theory. Is there a kind of disparity there between people's individual belief in their own individuality and ...
[RT]: Oh sure. People are different. The key finding from Kahneman and Tversky's research is not that everybody is the same but that on average we tend to err in the same direction. So we all think that we're going to finish projects sooner that we will. Although some people procrastinate more than others.
[AS]: Yeah. I think that describes me.
[RT]: Yeah. And my home contractor at the moment.
[AS]: [Laughs]. You sound very calm, how do you feel?
[RT]: Uhh. Well, not calm.
[AS]: Master of understatement. Will we look forward to welcoming you to Stockholm in December?
[RT]: Uh yes. I had the pleasure of coming with Prof. Kahneman and he keeps telling me I better win it soon because he wants to go back. So it'll be a pleasure to ask him to join me again.
[AS]: Oh that's gorgeous. And you will reverse roles ...
[RT]: Yes.
[AS]: ... See it from different perspective. OK, well, we very much look forward to having you here. Once again, congratulations.
[RT]: Thank you.
[AS]: And thank you for speaking to me. Bye bye.
“我們的研究極大改變了世界各地的養(yǎng)老金體系”
2017年瑞典國(guó)家銀行紀(jì)念阿爾弗雷德·諾貝爾經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)獎(jiǎng)揭曉后對(duì)理查德·H.·塞勒進(jìn)行了電話采訪。采訪人是諾貝爾傳媒部科學(xué)總監(jiān)亞當(dāng)·史密斯。經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)獎(jiǎng)的結(jié)果公布后立即錄制了這段電話采訪，理查德·H.·塞勒在采訪中闡述了他的工作對(duì)行為經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)的若干影響。他還解釋了“nudge”的概念，并期待與他的老朋友2002年經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)獎(jiǎng)得主丹尼爾·卡尼曼再次聚首斯德哥爾摩。
理查德·H.·塞勒（下簡(jiǎn)稱RT）：你好。
亞當(dāng)·史密斯（下簡(jiǎn)稱AS）：你好，我是亞當(dāng)·史密斯，從斯德哥爾摩諾貝爾獎(jiǎng)官網(wǎng)Nobelprize.org打來電話。
RT：好的。
AS：首先，祝賀您榮獲諾貝爾經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)獎(jiǎng)。
RT：謝謝你。
AS：我能不能問一下你怎么得到這條消息的？
RT：它把我弄醒了。
AS：【大笑】這種叫醒方式真好。
RT：是啊。在你手機(jī)上看到瑞典太好了。
AS：當(dāng)然。人們很可能因你近十年前出版的《Nudge》這本書熟知你。你能不能給還不知道的人講講什么是nudge？
RT：nudge是環(huán)境的某種特性，它改變?nèi)说男袨椋粫?huì)改變理性的經(jīng)濟(jì)因子，我們稱之為Econ。那么舉例來說，我?guī)字芮霸谒沟赂鐮柲τ懻摰难芯烤褪顷P(guān)于瑞典養(yǎng)老金體系中的兩個(gè)nudge，一是創(chuàng)立預(yù)設(shè)基金，如果人們沒有做出選擇，就領(lǐng)預(yù)設(shè)基金；另一個(gè)是鼓勵(lì)人們不領(lǐng)預(yù)設(shè)基金的宣傳活動(dòng)。我們正在寫的論文是關(guān)于這兩個(gè)nudge之間的斗法。
AS：對(duì)，是的。你最喜歡的成功nudge的例子是什么？
RT：嗯你知道嗎，我要說可能最成功的例子是在養(yǎng)老金計(jì)劃中使用我們所稱的“自動(dòng)加入”。意思是默認(rèn)加入，而不是不加入。
AS：哦。
RT：例如，最近英國(guó)啟動(dòng)的全國(guó)養(yǎng)老金儲(chǔ)蓄計(jì)劃就用上了，參加率妥妥地超過90%。
AS：你的朋友丹尼爾·卡尼曼榮獲諾貝爾經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)獎(jiǎng)至今已有15年。我想從那以后我們看到行為經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)領(lǐng)域欣欣向榮。你認(rèn)為它有沒有達(dá)到能用于產(chǎn)生制定公共政策的工具的程度？
RT：那必須的。我的意思是三周前有人請(qǐng)我來斯德哥爾摩正是談這個(gè)問題。我認(rèn)為我們的研究極大改變了世界各地的養(yǎng)老金體系。我們提出“明天存更多”的想法，也就是邀請(qǐng)人們承諾在將來的某個(gè)時(shí)間點(diǎn)存更多錢，事實(shí)證明它非常成功。我們認(rèn)為美國(guó)也許有多達(dá)2500萬(wàn)人參與了該項(xiàng)目。從英國(guó)開始，全世界很多國(guó)家都已開始成立行為洞察團(tuán)隊(duì)，常稱為nudge單位。他們看起來帶來了很多好處。
AS：最后一點(diǎn)，我們都喜歡認(rèn)為我們是不同的是吧？但不知怎么你的工作把我們都帶進(jìn)了一個(gè)劃一的理論。在人個(gè)性中的個(gè)人信念和 ...之間是不是有種分歧？
RT：噢那肯定。人是不同的。卡尼曼和特維爾斯基研究的重要發(fā)現(xiàn)不是說每個(gè)人都一樣，而是一般來講我們往往犯同一方向的錯(cuò)誤。因此我們都認(rèn)為我們將很快完成計(jì)劃，實(shí)際上卻沒這么快。一些人比其他人更拖拉。
AS：是啊。我想我就是那樣的。
RT：是啊。現(xiàn)在我家雇的建筑隊(duì)也是這樣。
AS：【大笑】你聽起來很平靜。你感覺如何？
RT：呃。并不平靜。
AS：舉重若輕的大師。我們能歡迎你12月來斯德哥爾摩嗎？
RT：啊是的。我很高興與卡尼曼教授聯(lián)袂前往，他反復(fù)跟我說我最好盡快獲獎(jiǎng)，因?yàn)樗牖氐侥恰Ｋ晕艺娓吲d能請(qǐng)他和我同去。
AS：噢那太棒了。這次你們的角色將對(duì)調(diào) ...
RT：是的。
AS： ...從不同角度觀看。好了，我們非常期待在這里見到二位。再次祝賀。
RT：謝謝你。
AS：感謝你接受我們采訪。再見。
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